I totally agree with you about Shape.. it is actually my belief that Shape new about Pettigrew the whole time but wanted Sirius to suffer Azkaban. his attitude towards Sirius escaping a dementia kiss is totally unprofessional and he should have been sacked right then and there..

Amen to everything here. Sure James wasn't the best person growing up, but bullying is a sad part of adolescence unfortunately. The thing is, is that James grew up. After the issue with Remus/Snape, James avoided Snape according to the books. Lily wouldn't have given him a chance otherwise. Not only that, Snape joined a group whose goal was to wipe her kind out. Then, once he realized who the prophecy referred to, begged Voldemort to spare her. Not her husband or son, but just her. Then to top it all off he pointlessly antagonizes the child of the only friend he ever had, who is SINGULARLY responsible for the terrible childhood of. Just shows you the kind of person he is. People try to romanticize his character as if he was some sort of tortured soul. Nope.

I also agree with your points. I think in the whole Harry Potter series the characters are depicted incorrectly. Ron being jealous of other people is natural as he doesn't have things that other children of his age have but Harry is depicted as unloved, friendless boy yet he doesn't defend Hermione in first year. I think Lucius Malfoy is right about atleast one thing that Albus Dumbledore is worst headmaster of Hogwarts. I mean which sane headmaster will make a trap for a dark lord which three first year students can bypass with relative ease or allows a death eater student to stay and plot of infilteration for death eaters in a school full of children from 11-18 years with little to no training just because he believes that the death eater is not murderer forgetting the fact that he had nearly killed three people in process and nearly used an unforgivable curse on Harry. I think Albus Dumbledore sees Hogwarts as his war base not an educational centre. Snape is a bully. That is what I think of him whenever I read Harry Potter books. Snape always considered petunia as a useless muggle all the while praising Lily . Snape is also said to have had an abusive environment and he is shown as a dark person who has immersed into dark arts. He is a bad teacher, human but he is always praised in end as if he is the only one to have a hard life who didn't get the love of woman he desired. I think Snape relationship with Lily is toxic as the story. I think only Ron and young Tom Riddle are only characters depicted correctly by JKR. Tom Riddle is an orphan bullied by other orphans. If I was bullied by anyone and I had magic I would do same thing as Tom Riddle to children who had bullied me even though I know it is wrong thing. I feel sad for Tom Riddle because he has done the same thing that we have done when we children to other children. Children always fight among themselves over smallest of issues so does that make them evil. No it doesn't but in the story Tom Riddle the child is treated as a evil kid. Is it because he had dared to use magic on muggle children but same fandom praises hagrid for giving Dudley a pig tail. Is it fare. I think when Albus Dumbledore comes to meet Tom Riddle at orphanage, the matron of orphanage says that some child had killed Tom pet snake so he had killed that children rabbit so naturally Tom is an evil child. While I do agree that Tom was a thief but way Dumbledore corrected Tom Riddle by nearly burning of Tom's things by a wave of wand was unwarranted. If I had collected any thing and they burned right in front of my eyes then I would also not like that person. Dumbledore had made Tom look very vulnerable child who couldn't save his precious stuff so Tom worked very hard to learn every possible magic. Dark arts is said to be very powerful magic so it was natural that Tom would have gravitate towards them. Also Harry Potter series doesn't showcase Tom's younger years in anti-muggleborn Slytherin house where he would be very good Target for powerful purebloods. Voldemort (adult Tom Riddle) is also characterised correctly as after conquering whole wizarding world Tom Riddle is bound to be arrogant. So I can't help but think that JKR missed some tricks in making Harry but I guess it is very difficult to think of way an abused boy lives in late 20th century as most stories with abused child heroes is to make them meek children who take abuse without give back anything in return (like most Disney stories).

Excellent dissection of the issue! Your argument is well laid out and convincing.

Not offended and the chapter makes good sense. Dumbledore glossed too much over Snape's rotten personality and JKR really doesn't make a clear moral stand regarding his activities, although I do like how Voldemort kills him in the end as Snape was merely the means to the end of possessing the Elder Wand. (Well, perhaps JKR does take a clear moral stand in this instance... Food for thought.) Also, too many other people in the books make excuses for Snape's behavior. Abusive people need to be kept away from positions of power and relationships. Been there, done that. NEVER AGAIN! Great chapter!

This pretty much sums up why I can't understand how not only is Snape seen as sympathetic, but that the 'friendship' between Snape and Lily isn't toxic as hell.

Rowling said something about how Snape would choose Lily if given the chance - but that wouldn't help. He'd actually have to choose to be a decent person. If he just 'chose Lily', he'd still be an obsessive, abusive person with an unhealthy sense of *ownership* of Lily.

I totally agree with your points on snape. I always found the romanticizing of snapes actions very strange. what really gets me mad though is when people start saying the LILY was the cause of snape joining the death eaters because she dropped him as a friend. She wasn't, he was going to be one anyway. and even if it was, how would that make his actions any better? I actually think it makes it much worse since he then only joined the death eaters out of spite. Nothing to do with snape, but I'm so glad that you included the meeting on the train. James was supposed to be so prejudiced against slytherins and the beginning kind of showed that when he said hed leave, but then people just prefer to ignore the fact that he didn't even miss a beat when Sirius admitted about his own family. He just makes a joke about it and doesn't treat him any differently. That right there really shows his character. Plus, unless Sirius hadn't told him his full name, James probably knew about his family since the beginning since they were both purebloods and how many wizards have the surname "Black"? yet he still never judged him. And I maintain that it was Snape who actually started the fight. If Snape had either ignored him or laughed it off like Sirius did, the "rivalry" would never have escalated. Snape was the one who escalated it by insulting James' father by outright stating that everyone who went in Gryffindor was stupid. James however, didn't even make a generalization, he was just stating his opinion. Granted, he didn't state his opinion in the best way, but it was very clearly JUST HIS OPINION. He just said that he would leave if he was sorted there. And for all we know, he could have been joking instead of stating his opinion in a joking manner. It bugs me when people create parallels between James and Draco because though they said the exact same thing, Draco said it in a sneering way and James HAD A SMILE ON HIS FACE.

Someone read the books! It's about time.

You hit the nail square on the head. How anyone can make a desirable human out of the greasy slime ball (to quote Ron's description) evades my grasp. Thank you for pointing out the obvious. JKR provided him the best resolution of his life possible under the circumstances.

I agree with everything you said. I mean, I acknowledge that Snape spied for Dumbledore and that's good and all, but that doesn't excuse his actions. His love for Lily was more of an obsession than genuine. It wasn't healthy. I mean, Snape basically bullied Harry for years because he hated James. And bullied Neville too. I mean, I'm not saying he had to like them or anything, but as a teacher, it is just wrong to act like that towards your own students. The way he acted was childish. He's an adult, not a fifteen year old anymore.
And yeah, James and Sirius bullied him in the past and that's horrible, but as you pointed out; it didn't cause lasting physical damage like Sectumsempra did. And the difference was that they grew out of it, while Snape became the bully as an adult. While Snape's past may be an explanation for his current behavior, it is not a justification for his behavior. There's a difference, and I find that way too many people treat it as justification.
I mean, when you think about it, if Lily never died, Snape wouldn't have seen the need to leave the Death Eaters. If it was a random muggle-born, he wouldn't have cared. If it was only James who died, he wouldn't have cared. If Voldemort chose to go after Neville instead from the prophecy, Snape wouldn't have cared.
I feel like he started to see Lily as less of a person in her own right and more as just the object of his love; not caring about her hurting emotionally. His love for her was so selfish and obsessive and it caused him to act so cruel towards her son.
I mean, okay, I like conflicted, complicated characters and all and I like writing morally grey characters, but I hate the people who treat Snape like a saint. Yes, he was brave in becoming a spy. But he still had a horrible personality and an unhealthy obsession with Lily. Like the title, toxic.
~Saturn10710~

First I would like to point out either a typo or a legitimate mistake. You mentioned that Severus antagonized James when it was the other way around. I mean James really should have just minded his own business instead of ridiculing Snape over him wanting to be in Slytherin. I might be wrong but I have never, in any of the books or movies, read that James picked on Severus because of Sirius (hell considering the compartment scene where James tried to trip Severus when he and Lily decided to go to another compartment to avoid any more problems its obvious that James already decided to start picking on Snape before really befriending Sirius). It has never been stated that James' bullying of Severus was him supporting Sirius in any way shape or form. Also our definitions of harmful seem to be different because I, for one, believe that torture and murder is well passed it. After all is suffocation not a recognized method of torture? Is it not a known method of murder? Is using Scourgify, a household cleaning spell, to choke Severus not a legitimate method and attempt of causing Snape harm? Pantsing someone is humiliating yes (also arguably sexual harassment) but you can't ignore that Potter and the other Marauders had legitimately harmed Severus and from the reactions of everyone else it wasn't exactly a one time thing. Also don't forget that Sirius, if not Potter, has tried to kill Severus and has gotten away with it with the equivalent of a smack on the wrist. I can't prove it but I have always believed that Severus' invention of Sectumsempra was a reaction to the Werewolf incident and simply can't bring myself to blame him for it considering how desperate he, I, or anyone would be to feel safe in the face of such a crime or such relentless harassment. I've also always suspected that Severus made friends with the Death Eaters in the hope that he would get some backup against the Marauders or discourage the Marauders from attacking him when they realize they might not outnumber him. I look at Severus and see a miracle since it would likely have been easy for Severus to become the Wizarding equivalent of a school shooter (either with his knowledge of Spells or Potions) but he managed to keep himself above that even if joining the Death Eaters was an admittedly terrible move.